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pyrocrow Wrote:But as for not wanting to say "under god" in the pledge of allegiance, that doesn't make you right, that takes you away from religion, all of them, and makes you look like a *****. It doesn't even say a specific god. It'd be different if it said "one nation, under ya-wei" but it doesn't, and that's why there should be no problem saying it. Even if you believe yourself to be god, this removal had no reason to take place. I still will encourage the saying of under god.
It doesn't state a specific God? Like there's any other God named God. What about atheists, with no God? What if we want to be away from religion? What right does any person have to think I'm a b!tch because I'm not religious?
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I must state that religion is not forced upon one, thus making it the choice of one to believe in a cretain religion or to chose not to belive in anythng. I have noticed that many of the points you presented were more of a matter of opinion and how you look and interpret events, such as evolution being banned. It could have been just one person trying to do that or a large crowd of people but ether way, you are still free to believe or to not believe in what you want. However your english teacher did present an interesting point, but in my opinion it was a resizing of truths to make the point being shown to you stronger. But please do not quote me on any of this because i am just saying what i believe, just like everyone else did.
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I love god too. I would also like to present the fact that most religions doctrine posses rules that tell one how to live their life serving others to make this world a better place. A fine example of this is the 10 commandments, which i follow. A person that is christain wants to get to heaven, correct? Ones desire to get to heaven drives them to do good things rather than bad things(most of the time). Which actually helps this world, although you may not take notice of this, in a sence religion keeps or helps to keeps what order we have on this earth.
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Of course it keeps order. It keeps unintelligent people (I'm not saying all religious people are unintelligent, run with me on this) in line. See, I believe in the preservation of society as a whole. I understand that the killing of other people, looting, and such things can bring my life into danger, or present a hinder to the society as a whole.
Some people don't understand this, so why not let them believe that doing the right thing is really something that will predict what will happen after you die? That was the basis by which I believe religion was originally created, as a restraint for those willing to believe.
Also... Self-preservation.. Just for the record, I'd like to elaborate more on my belief. I am the most important person that has ever existed. If I could choose to destroy a hundred other people or myself, I would kill those hundred people without a second thought.
In their dying breath, more than likely, they will think of what will come to them in death. They will probably face their death readily, expecting heaven. That's not the case for me. After this, there is nothing for me.. At least from what science can tell us right now, and that is really quite scary. I don't want to die, and I won't be meeting that death readily.
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Wow, I didn't realise you were such a selfish person...if it were between myself and 100 others I would gladly sacrifice myself knowing that I did it for a greater cause and did not seek to preserve my own life by destroying others. I'll bet you're one of those people who would rather move to Canada or pretend to be gay in order to get out of military service if we were being invaded.
On topic though, if you notice the US was initially inhabited by religious people and then later colonized by religious outcasts. The country was founded on religious ideals and morals. You know why this country spreads out from one ocean to another? Manifest Destiny, a religious belief. Is it any coincidence that our laws have deep roots in things like the ten commandments and the Bible? I'm not religious, but I can accept these things.
And the pledge? Is it really going to hurt you to say it? Does it somehow force the belief in God into your head?
Oh, and by the way his name is not God...God is actually more of a title, as the Greeks had mutliple Gods, really God just refers to some higher power. Each religion has a different name for their God/Gods.
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Yeah, I'm selfish. It's just the way I have to be in order to make a greater, overall impact on society. I want to prolong my own life as long as I can because it's all I essentially have. I'm selfish when it comes to life, but not in other matters. I'm not going to be a stingy bastard when I finally hit paydirt as a lawyer, I find charity an exremely worthwhile endeavor.
Actually, when it comes down to something as essential as life, I shouldn't even really call it selfish. I consider it protecting what is mine. And no, I would never move to Canada or pretend I'm gay to get out of the military. I would probably enlist and become a mechanic or welder if it was ENTIRELY mandatory. I obviously wouldn't fight, but I would contribute. Hopefully I didn't tarnish my own reputation too much with that statement, you kinda have to look at it from my point of view to understand.
Also, I understand entirely what influences religion has had on our history. It's a hell of a thing, in my opinion, even though I don't wholly agree with it... But this is the 21st century and I don't think religion should overshadow common sense any more.
On to the pledge. I say the entire thing every single day in class, because it's patriotic. The 'under God' deal doesn't even hold water in my opinion. It's been drilled into my head enough that I don't even think about it, I just didn't like how Pyrocrow put things, it bothered me so I responded.
And yeah, I kinda caught myself after I typed that whole 'what other God is there, blah blah blah' thing... I understand that the Christian God is Jehovah (methinks, correct me if I'm wrong), but that essentially means God, just as Allah means 'the God.' Sorry for the misrepresentation of my ideas.
Again, hopefully I didn't come off as a cruel, cold-hearted person. I'm just, again, protecting the most important thing that has ever existed to me.
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Faith is the only thing that keeps society stable. Without it, there would be no order.
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imo i believe that whether or not one or many gods exist has no impact on me until i die. if any god did indeed create this world we live in then let me live in the world i see before me and i will believe in heaven when that becomes the world i see before me. religion is nice but i think it skews the intended message of its creators, whether divine or earthly. im just going to live my life according to the morals that i dictate on myself based on my own judgements and emotions.
and if i get into heaven. well, that's nice too
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'[/sarcasm Wrote:Actually, when it comes down to something as essential as life, I shouldn't even really call it selfish. I consider it protecting what is mine. And no, I would never move to Canada or pretend I'm gay to get out of the military. I would probably enlist and become a mechanic or welder if it was ENTIRELY mandatory. I obviously wouldn't fight, but I would contribute. Hopefully I didn't tarnish my own reputation too much with that statement, you kinda have to look at it from my point of view to understand.
Well that's really what selfishness is, you protect what's your's despite what it may do to others. To me my own life is important but it's not as important to me as those I love and care about.
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This is why I, personaly, don't believe in any god. I am a realist and the only way i would belive in a Chirstianity is if there was a second coming of Jesuseek: . I'm not like one of those goths who worship the devil or anything i just live my life the way i think is right and don't look to a god for my answers. But about Chrisianity and religion in general running society, i completely agree. Why shouldn't I?
Cristians in around the year 1600 did it to Asia. They influenced Japanese Lords and interfered with the politics. They also had a person on the dragon throne in China. Those portuguese priest the jesuits converted everyone they could. They used Asia for just getting rich off trade(their ally Spain was the richest country in the world at the time) and conversions. They felt they could do this because the "vicar or Christ" the pope the supposed most holy person on earth gave every part of the new world away if they spread faith there. He thought he had the right to give away countries to another.
But...yeah, religion is just an excuse to not fear death. "When you die you will go to a perfect paradise(probably spelled wrong) called Heaven" "And if your bad you go to hell...be afriad" They just dont want to accept the fact that when you die you die and theirs nothing you can do. They should just go with the flow, if you die then you do. Shouldn't worry about things you can't control because it will just happen anyway and thats one of my mottos and not just for life and death.
Oh and by thew way, [/sarcasm] that whole 200 instead of yourself thing, thats really selfish man. I don't think you'd make it into that heaven of your if you did that.devilish:
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10-29-2005, 11:43 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2005, 11:48 AM by X Y Z.)
[/sarcasm] Although I know our civilization wont receed enough to go back to killing people of different beliefs (other than wars, you know..)[B Wrote: but I am worried about America becoming culturally backwards (or even more so, actually) from the other civilizations of the world because of the restriction of rights or witholding of valuable information to our youth.[/B] Post your opinions.
[/sarcasm] Also... Self-preservation.. Just for the record, Id like to elaborate more on my belief. I am the most important person that has ever existed. [U Wrote:If I could choose to destroy a hundred other people or myself, I would kill those hundred people without a second thought. [/U]
I was just browsing the topics and this, I must say, caught my eye. Now we all know how heated a topic religion has always been, but sarcasm you have been talking about civilization being "culturally backwards" because of religion. Now... you cite being culturally backwards as the youth being held back information when they are younger restricting their rights. You also say that you would kill 100 people other than yourself to preserve yourself without a seconds thought. The selfishness of this statement has already been previously touched upon, that is not the point I am trying to drive in. The point rather, is the idea of "culturally backwards." How can you possibly believe in your right might that 6 billion people willing to kill ONE HUNDRED others to preserve their own life is culturally "forwards" or whatever you would prefer to call it, "socially acceptable, modern, or non-idealistic." Think of the word Barbarian. Now after you get rid of Diablo 2 mental images and CLEAR YOUR HEAD, what kind of image do you see. A mean, vicious person wielding a powerful weapon, whatever it may be, and simply destroying the enemy without a second thought. Are they smiled upon? No. Do you get pretty pictures of daisies and dandylions in your mind when you hear that word? No. Are you saying that the world is not culturally backwards if we choose to disregard religion and believe in self-preservation? If you truly believe that your conviction is better than withholding some information, you yourself are culturally backwards. Do you realize what would happen if everyone believed that? No you don't because guess what, you'd be dead already. Religion is not something that was IMPOSED on you out of nowhere. God (whichever your own may be) did not suddenly say, "PUT MY NAME IN YOUR NATIONAL ANTHEM HEATHEN!" or "PUT SOME OF MY MORALS IN YOUR CONSTITUTION!" Hey sarcasm... WE PUT THEM THERE. Your forefathers put them there. Frankly, if you ask me and I was given the choice to be with 1 billion Christians or 1 billion people with the belief of self-preservation, no God beliefs such as yourself... then I would be signing up for the Bible because at the end of the day the world is a better place. The world hasn't BRAINWASHED me to say that, I used reason; and yes, you still have that. Think about the world, or even the United States without religion entirely. Pretty? Yes? I beg to differ.
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Again, you people are assuming far too much out of what I said. I don't have any problems with people being religious. In fact, I don't want anyone else to want to stay alive as much as me. I'm fine with people being religious, and I never said I wasn't. Also, when the hell did I ever say that 'God' forced a religion upon me? You're obviously mistaking me for an idiot. It was never implied that I hated religion.
I did, however, say that I didn't want people's better judgement to be eclipsed by religious ideas. Yeah man, I'm a barbarian. Except for the whole fact that I'm literate, I've got money, and I'm highly intelligent if you ask me. If, by the sole fact that hypothetically I would do anything to stay alive, you believe that I, myself, am a culturally backwards person, you are sadly mistaken. That's really just a ridiculous assumption and you obviously don't understand my frame of mind.
The world needs religion, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone has to agree with it. I, for one, will not try to destroy religion. If I were given a paper that explained, without flaw, that God never existed (hypothetically, unless you haven't figured that out already), I would probably lock that in a safe and never think about it again until I were about to die.
Plus, space out your goddamn paragraphs, that was a b!tch to read. And Hellsing, I'm an Atheist if you haven't already come to that conclusion.
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[/sarcasm] Wrote:The world needs religion, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone has to agree with it. I, for one, will not try to destroy religion. If I were given a paper that explained, without flaw, that God never existed (hypothetically, unless you haven't figured that out already), I would probably lock that in a safe and never think about it again until I were about to die.
Plus, space out your goddamn paragraphs, that was a b!tch to read. And Hellsing, I'm an Atheist if you haven't already come to that conclusion.
Then wtf are you ranting about. We need it, so it is in our pledge. You don't agree? More power to you! In fact, power to you for being the people who force the some balance of church and state, but there really is no need to say that religion if for unintelligent people (but not all of them apparently) who need to be kept in line. Different beliefs; one isn't better than the other because frankly both cannot TOTALLY be proven.
Edit: And I'm willing to be a big boy and say sorry for calling you stupid. *hugs* Sorry.
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I understand the main purpose of X Y Z's first post...He was pointing out that it's a bit hypocritical for you to say that something like religion or even just religion's influence is "socially backward" when you take an almost extreme belief in a more Darwinistic nature. Survival of the fittest sure...but does that mean you must lack compassion? And remember being willing to lend someone money or give to charity is far different from condemning hundreds to die in order to save yourself.
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[/sarcasm] Wrote: I did, however, say that I didn't want people's better judgement to be eclipsed by religious ideas. Yeah man, I'm a barbarian. Except for the whole fact that I'm literate, I've got money, and I'm highly intelligent if you ask me. If, by the sole fact that hypothetically I would do anything to stay alive, you believe that I, myself, am a culturally backwards person, you are sadly mistaken. That's really just a ridiculous assumption and you obviously don't understand my frame of mind.
In accordance to X Y Z's post:
Again, you seem to assume that my rant is a religion-hating thing. I simply don't think that people should put religious ideas before common sense. Hopefully now you won't conveniently miss that part. And I didn't say that religion was specifically for unintelligent people, and if I did, I misworded myself. I just said that it does keep unintelligent people in line and that it probably was formulated for that purpose. If it keeps people willing to live, good for them.
In accordance to Spoon's post (and X Y Z to an extent):
Okay, that was probably an exaggeration to emphasize the extent to which I preserve myself and to contrast my belief to Christian belief. You know, the part about them expecting to go to heaven and live in a paradise instead of there being absolutely nothing.
And I don't lack compassion. You act almost as if you're met with a life-and-death situation daily where you have to kill 100 people. It's just ridiculous to think that it actually matters in life and the actions I speak of don't even have anything to do with compassion. If I were to say that charity sucked and I would never want to help anyone else, then I could understand your point, but to constantly bring up how I would react if my life were in danger just doesn't hold any water.
I'm going to be a lawyer, I'll be sitting at my desk all day, not out there killing people, it's no longer the Dark Ages.
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It's not a matter of how likely it is that the situation would present itself, it's more that you are so quick to value your own life over 100 others. You may feel some remorse or sorrow upon condemning them so saying you have no compassion was wrong. I think now maybe it's more of a lack of consideration of the repricussions your decision will have on others.
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