09-26-2005, 06:11 PM
Sorry, this is all muddled, but I had several posts to respond to.
1. Hitler's generals said that he was the best of them all.
All of You guys are thinking as if all of those things happened today. Let's not forget that our mentalities have been largely shaped by the WWII. 60 years ago people thought very differently. 60 years ago Hitler was not labelled the Jewkiller that he is today. The concentration camps worked in secret and contained mainly political prisoners, rather than Jews. The first death camps were only set up after the start of the war, hence why most of them were in Poland. Let's not forget the fact that Hitler was extremely popular internationally in the 1930. He was voted the politician of the year by one of the "Time" issues. The only reason for why England joined against Germany was because of the Polish invasion, ideologically England would have supported Germany, because at the time, it wasn't Hitler that was seen as the threat, but Stalin. Even in Your own country, (America I'm speaking of) read up on the "Red Scare". People were scared of communism and it's spread, that was seen as the prime enemy, not fascism. Even after the war had started, there was a lot of support for Hitler in England, because even the their royal family is of German decent. Due to this, England had always had close ties with the Germans, WWI being their 1st conflict.
On the other hand, France had always been the traditional enemy, who the English had fought for centuries. I'm not sure, but I think that even now the English still haven't given up their claim for the French throne. During the 100 Years war (14-15 C), England owned 3/4 of France, and Henry V (I think) was to marry the French princess, making him the King of both countries, however unfortunately for England at the time, he died unexpectedly, leaving his son as a minor. France saw this as an opportunity and fought all the terrain back, except for Calais, which was to be lost in Mary's (Bloody Mary) time. Ever since the 100 Years war, the Kings of England have nominally been claiming the throne of France, and were also crowned Kings of France (not recognized by the French obviously). This small thing has led to centuries of conflict between the two nations. Due to that, England would much rather have supported Germany even in WWII, but were bound to a mutual protection pact with Poland.
Hitler never had the intention of taking out America. Had he won the war in Europe early enough there wouldn't have been a goddamn thing that the Americans could have done. This wouldn't have been like the Americans going to Iraq or Afghanistan or something. Europe is a large continent and if Hitler had already won there, he would have been able to concentrate his forces and take the invading Americans out decisevly. And there was also Japan.
Actually, Hitler got his initial support because he promised to reverse the treaty of Versailles, not because he blamed Jews. Ever heard of the November criminals? Hitler was a soldier in the German armies in WWI, and was hospitalised after he got sprayed with mustard gas (I think it was that one). Many German soldiers thought that Germany shouldn't have signed the peace treaty and formed the "Freikorps" after the war, which eventually took the communists off power (Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknact [sorry I'm misspelling one of their names, even though I speak German] and the lot). The scapegoat theory came to practise much later, which I will explain onwards.
Trogdor "The man was a genius when it came to using propaganda to leash together most of Germany."
He wasn't. Dr. Goebbles was in charge of propaganda. He was a genius at his work. And Jewish.
"The KKK is here because of Hitler, so are neo-nazis."
The KKK goes back way longer than the Nazis... And I'm not even American.
"1.) Yes, they are anti-semitic, for the most part
2.) Here are the 2 main reasons that he chose the jews to die :
1: Hitler was VERY christian... and the jews my HISTORICAL intentions, did kill jesus. Biblical, well, seems to agree.
2: Long time ago, jewish docters refused to help saves his mothers life... anyone would bear a grudge against that
3.) Flat out, had germany formed more aliances with other nations, and found a way (which they could have) to make the hostility treaty work to there favor, we would all be speaking german and thanking hitler for his excelent work.
4.) I agree with death. If you cant bear to use correct grammer in here, a serious discussion, get out and go play diablo some more, learn to type at some point, then we may allow you back.
5.) kthanksbye"
1. What a terrible generalisation. I'm 1/8 German, cannot say that I have the right or reason to make such accusations.
2. a) Actually, Hitler had a Jewish doctor himself.
b) The reasons aren't that simple. Read Politology. There are many philosophers that claim that fascism can only work by a) the suppression of the opinions of the masses, i.e. America (comeon, You guys do still use the indirect voting system, a system used during the Early Middle Period in Europe in order to suppress the peasants.)
b) A nation pumped up on nationalism (America could be a good example here again).
c) by the prosecution of a scapegoat. You have to find a common enemy, that is foreign, yet common in Your country. By finding the common enemy, it is much easier to unite people for Your cause.
3. Don't know if You're American, most people mean America by saying "we" on this forum (self-explanitory). What if he had made alliances instead of taking countries over? He automatically became the dictator of every single country that he took over, meaning that he had complete control over their economic status anyway. For one year, I studied the Nazi occupation of France. France wasn't even an annexed country, it had a puppet government set up by Hitler. This puppet government (Gouvernement de Vichy) provided Hitler with everything that he needed, supplies, recruits, You name it. One mistake that he made was, bringing the example of my own country, Estonia, Hitler did not allow the formation of an independent Estonian army. Given the circumstances, there would have been TONS of extra recruits from Estonia alone (population 1.3 million at the time), not speaking of other countries. During the Nazi occupation, when it seemed to everyone that Germany was going to win, the hopes of Estonian independence after the war were very high, and the reason for why people didn't join the German armies was because they didn't want to fight in the German uniform. You may say that it was stupid of them, but I'll give You a good example. After the war, as You probably know already, the SS was declared a criminal organisation, yes all branches of it. Even though the Waffen-SS (which had a HUGE number of foreign recruits from all countries, which was also joined by 3 of my grand-uncles) had nothing to do with ideology, besides the uniform that they were fighting in. Before You answer this statement, make a thorough research of the SS, because I have so I can make this statement without remorse.
EDIT: A little addition. There's no way that Hitler could ever have defeated Russia. He didn't have the men, the resources or the technology. Also history has pretty much proven Russia to be undefeatble (The only time that I can remember Russia actually acknowledging her defeat was with Estonia, the Treaty of Tartu, 1920). The first one to try was Karl XII of Sweden, he was eventually defeated at Poltava, around 1710, can't remember the exact date. Napoleon came next. He left with 600000 men, returned with 25000. Hitler was the third one and also failed. Whenever Russians get invaded, they turn on their own people. They raze every single community/house/settlement to the ground. By slaughtering their own people, they make sure that the enemy won't have anything to feed on. This is called the scorched earth policy. They then keep retreating, consuming/destroying everything in their way, not offering the enemy a battle, only doing so when the enemy's army has been weakened to the point that it looks like a mass of beggars, rather than a regular army. This tactic can be employed anytime by the Russians. They have a barbaric peasantry, who can be used to kill others of the kind without remorse. The amount of land that Russia has is just vast. Moscow is still considered to be "Europe", yet it's so far... Compare the sizes of Russia to the rest of Europe on the map... There's no way that this Empire can ever be defeated from the outside, only from the inside.
EDIT2: By the way, by developing their V2 project, the Germans were very close to developing a nuke as well. There are some historians that claim that Hitler actually had the nuke already. Also, it was the German scientists that developed Sarin already in 1938.
SpoonMan999 Wrote:I would like to continue this discussion a bit from the whole Nazi flag ordeal. Not the discussion about the flag of course but the discussion on Hitler and Nazi Germany.
You can find the old discussion here if you want to get caught up: http://www.d2sector.net/forums/showthread.php?t=23408
Ok, I need to comment on this post:
Ok, first off Hitler was forunate to have a staff of excellent strategists and he himself just chose which ones would be the quickest. He was not in fact this glorious general you claim him to be.
Secondly, Hitler sent the best of his staff, Erwin Rommel, to Africa and refused to continue sending supplies to him. So not only did he ship off his best general to a desert, simply because Rommel disagreed with one of Hitler's decisions, but he also doomed him to fail.
Thirdly, Hitler had to fight on all fronts because he violated his non-agression pact with Stalin. If he had taken out Britain and America first we would all probably be speaking German right now. All he had to do was wait till he took out the others and the russians would have been screwed. Also, Hitler was a bit of a ***** with those pesky supplies again and many of his men suffered greatly in the cold and his army was much less proficient.
Fourth, yes he was a motivational speaker but you can thank his ascension to the loss in WW I. Hitler found a way to blame the Jews and Gypsies and everyone that he hated in order to gain the favor of the people. The Nazi party was originally just a bunch of guys that met up and talked about how much that hate people really. It wasn't until after their loss in WW I that Hitler really got out there and gave the Germans somebody to blame for their embarassment. The whole "It wasn't our fault! It was the Jews!" idea was a very favorable one for the Germans.
Thank you and good night. Or afternoon...
1. Hitler's generals said that he was the best of them all.
All of You guys are thinking as if all of those things happened today. Let's not forget that our mentalities have been largely shaped by the WWII. 60 years ago people thought very differently. 60 years ago Hitler was not labelled the Jewkiller that he is today. The concentration camps worked in secret and contained mainly political prisoners, rather than Jews. The first death camps were only set up after the start of the war, hence why most of them were in Poland. Let's not forget the fact that Hitler was extremely popular internationally in the 1930. He was voted the politician of the year by one of the "Time" issues. The only reason for why England joined against Germany was because of the Polish invasion, ideologically England would have supported Germany, because at the time, it wasn't Hitler that was seen as the threat, but Stalin. Even in Your own country, (America I'm speaking of) read up on the "Red Scare". People were scared of communism and it's spread, that was seen as the prime enemy, not fascism. Even after the war had started, there was a lot of support for Hitler in England, because even the their royal family is of German decent. Due to this, England had always had close ties with the Germans, WWI being their 1st conflict.
On the other hand, France had always been the traditional enemy, who the English had fought for centuries. I'm not sure, but I think that even now the English still haven't given up their claim for the French throne. During the 100 Years war (14-15 C), England owned 3/4 of France, and Henry V (I think) was to marry the French princess, making him the King of both countries, however unfortunately for England at the time, he died unexpectedly, leaving his son as a minor. France saw this as an opportunity and fought all the terrain back, except for Calais, which was to be lost in Mary's (Bloody Mary) time. Ever since the 100 Years war, the Kings of England have nominally been claiming the throne of France, and were also crowned Kings of France (not recognized by the French obviously). This small thing has led to centuries of conflict between the two nations. Due to that, England would much rather have supported Germany even in WWII, but were bound to a mutual protection pact with Poland.
Hitler never had the intention of taking out America. Had he won the war in Europe early enough there wouldn't have been a goddamn thing that the Americans could have done. This wouldn't have been like the Americans going to Iraq or Afghanistan or something. Europe is a large continent and if Hitler had already won there, he would have been able to concentrate his forces and take the invading Americans out decisevly. And there was also Japan.
Actually, Hitler got his initial support because he promised to reverse the treaty of Versailles, not because he blamed Jews. Ever heard of the November criminals? Hitler was a soldier in the German armies in WWI, and was hospitalised after he got sprayed with mustard gas (I think it was that one). Many German soldiers thought that Germany shouldn't have signed the peace treaty and formed the "Freikorps" after the war, which eventually took the communists off power (Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknact [sorry I'm misspelling one of their names, even though I speak German] and the lot). The scapegoat theory came to practise much later, which I will explain onwards.
Trogdor "The man was a genius when it came to using propaganda to leash together most of Germany."
He wasn't. Dr. Goebbles was in charge of propaganda. He was a genius at his work. And Jewish.
"The KKK is here because of Hitler, so are neo-nazis."
The KKK goes back way longer than the Nazis... And I'm not even American.
"1.) Yes, they are anti-semitic, for the most part
2.) Here are the 2 main reasons that he chose the jews to die :
1: Hitler was VERY christian... and the jews my HISTORICAL intentions, did kill jesus. Biblical, well, seems to agree.
2: Long time ago, jewish docters refused to help saves his mothers life... anyone would bear a grudge against that
3.) Flat out, had germany formed more aliances with other nations, and found a way (which they could have) to make the hostility treaty work to there favor, we would all be speaking german and thanking hitler for his excelent work.
4.) I agree with death. If you cant bear to use correct grammer in here, a serious discussion, get out and go play diablo some more, learn to type at some point, then we may allow you back.
5.) kthanksbye"
1. What a terrible generalisation. I'm 1/8 German, cannot say that I have the right or reason to make such accusations.
2. a) Actually, Hitler had a Jewish doctor himself.
b) The reasons aren't that simple. Read Politology. There are many philosophers that claim that fascism can only work by a) the suppression of the opinions of the masses, i.e. America (comeon, You guys do still use the indirect voting system, a system used during the Early Middle Period in Europe in order to suppress the peasants.)
b) A nation pumped up on nationalism (America could be a good example here again).
c) by the prosecution of a scapegoat. You have to find a common enemy, that is foreign, yet common in Your country. By finding the common enemy, it is much easier to unite people for Your cause.
3. Don't know if You're American, most people mean America by saying "we" on this forum (self-explanitory). What if he had made alliances instead of taking countries over? He automatically became the dictator of every single country that he took over, meaning that he had complete control over their economic status anyway. For one year, I studied the Nazi occupation of France. France wasn't even an annexed country, it had a puppet government set up by Hitler. This puppet government (Gouvernement de Vichy) provided Hitler with everything that he needed, supplies, recruits, You name it. One mistake that he made was, bringing the example of my own country, Estonia, Hitler did not allow the formation of an independent Estonian army. Given the circumstances, there would have been TONS of extra recruits from Estonia alone (population 1.3 million at the time), not speaking of other countries. During the Nazi occupation, when it seemed to everyone that Germany was going to win, the hopes of Estonian independence after the war were very high, and the reason for why people didn't join the German armies was because they didn't want to fight in the German uniform. You may say that it was stupid of them, but I'll give You a good example. After the war, as You probably know already, the SS was declared a criminal organisation, yes all branches of it. Even though the Waffen-SS (which had a HUGE number of foreign recruits from all countries, which was also joined by 3 of my grand-uncles) had nothing to do with ideology, besides the uniform that they were fighting in. Before You answer this statement, make a thorough research of the SS, because I have so I can make this statement without remorse.
EDIT: A little addition. There's no way that Hitler could ever have defeated Russia. He didn't have the men, the resources or the technology. Also history has pretty much proven Russia to be undefeatble (The only time that I can remember Russia actually acknowledging her defeat was with Estonia, the Treaty of Tartu, 1920). The first one to try was Karl XII of Sweden, he was eventually defeated at Poltava, around 1710, can't remember the exact date. Napoleon came next. He left with 600000 men, returned with 25000. Hitler was the third one and also failed. Whenever Russians get invaded, they turn on their own people. They raze every single community/house/settlement to the ground. By slaughtering their own people, they make sure that the enemy won't have anything to feed on. This is called the scorched earth policy. They then keep retreating, consuming/destroying everything in their way, not offering the enemy a battle, only doing so when the enemy's army has been weakened to the point that it looks like a mass of beggars, rather than a regular army. This tactic can be employed anytime by the Russians. They have a barbaric peasantry, who can be used to kill others of the kind without remorse. The amount of land that Russia has is just vast. Moscow is still considered to be "Europe", yet it's so far... Compare the sizes of Russia to the rest of Europe on the map... There's no way that this Empire can ever be defeated from the outside, only from the inside.
EDIT2: By the way, by developing their V2 project, the Germans were very close to developing a nuke as well. There are some historians that claim that Hitler actually had the nuke already. Also, it was the German scientists that developed Sarin already in 1938.
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