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The real scandal of Terri Schiavo's situation is that her personal and private tragedy has become a religious and political "chessmatch".
Her own wishes for a natural rather then artificial prolonged death (expressed to her husband and others close to her) have been denied for 15 years, and her dignity is being violated by the media.
Most debate these days seems to miss the point, it is the religious and political "right" who are trying to decide Terri's fate against her express wishes. The problem is that her wishes were expressed verbally rather than in writing through the medium of a living will.
The dilemma of modern medicine is that "life" can be prolonged almost indefinitely by artificial means (Within reason), regardless of it's quality. It is crucial that those of us concerned about the way we will die use the medium of a living will and living power of attorney, legally designating someone who we trust to make sure our wishes are carried out.
Copies are then given to one's next of kin, physician, religious representative (if any) and lawyer to ensure follow-up. It needs to be renewed every three years.
My own living will expresses in detail my wishes for adequate pain relief, and death which is not prolonged by artificial means.
The irony of the situation is that while the "Right to Life" movement almost hysterically opposes Terri Schiavo's express wish to be allowed to die, it is reliably reported that thousands of Americans die every year because they cannot afford medical care and billions of dollars are spent on developing "shock and awe" weapons which kill innocent civilians in other countries.
...Where is their outrage about that?
Disgusted by the cesspool that is our society
-Priest
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~~Removed by Pantallica
Business & Computer Science major
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i really hate people like christian fundamentalist groups that think they can take charge of anything because they are sent from god to improve our pagan lives
and i notice that they are very hypocratic. they say that the life of schiavo should be placed in the hands of the parents but it clearly states in their almighty bible that in marriage, all ties are severed and blah blah blah something about the man and woman becoming one flesh
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To think I used to have respect for you Dynaform.
*shakes head and mutters "cesspool"*
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dacougarmech Wrote:i really hate people like christian fundamentalist groups that think they can take charge of anything because they are sent from god to improve our pagan lives
and i notice that they are very hypocratic. they say that the life of schiavo should be placed in the hands of the parents but it clearly states in their almighty bible that in marriage, all ties are severed and blah blah blah something about the man and woman becoming one flesh You are so unbelievably ignorant. Go back to the hole that you emerged from to make such a statement. Who's pagan? You are? Who else? Some people? "Hypocratic"??? Learn to spell buddy...In "their almighty bible" as if it is only there Bible and doesn't also belong to plenty of other less-religious people. You claim it is only religious fundamentalists who want this woman to stay alive. Wow, just stop now before you embarrass yourself.
Now back to the issue at hand...are you supposed to believe that an "alleged" statement claiming that she wouldn't want to live out life as a quadriplegic vegetable after seeing a movie that focused on somebody who was one. Hmmm...is that all we have to use? Yes it is. What if you found out years later that Schiavo's husband killed her faster because he was to get remarried and didn't want to divorce her in this vegetative state because that would look bad? Would you rethink your stance? I surely would...
All I'm trying to say is that the husband's claims do not sound nearly clear enough to unplug a feeding tube and allow a woman to starve and dehydrate to death. Yes, she might not feel it, but this is still a very horrible way to kill someone. It is technically murder. Good day.
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Trog,
We are all entitled to our opinions, and I respect yours.
But if you look at what I had posted earlier, it was not just the husband who she had expressed these wishes to.
This is not murder my friend, it is being a human being and having mercy.
Let the woman have some dignity and die in peace, why must you speculate so much as to what the husbands motives are when it is not just he who would wish that her feeding tube be removed but also HER and her close friends. The husband is just at the centre of this because, well he is HER husband.
This gives him the strongest voice in their case.
How can you say such things about the husband without knowing him personally? Did you spend 15 years by YOUR wifes bedside, talking to her, taking care of her. Showing her that you love her.
Perhaps he has gone through his own personal hell with this decision. The feeding tube was removed once before, do you not think he felt horrible about that?
Put yourself in that mans shoes Trog.
He loves his wife and would do anything for her, and her one wish is for him to let her die.
I'd like to see you make that decision.
Their relationship obviousley had alot of love in it, giving that the husband has stood by her bedside for fifteen years, It is foolish to think that she would have NOT expressed those wishes to die a humane and merciful death when it was her time. Do you really think she would have wanted to be thought of as a burden?
Nevertheless, it is coming to a close and the debate will end.
May she be with whatever God she worships, and may she find peace.
- Priest
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When married your next of kin, or legal guardian, is your spouse? Correct? Okay. So Michael Shiavo is her husband which means when she is unable to speak for herself he speaks for her as her legal guardian and thus sees that her wishes are carried. Okay if all that is right, reguardless of whether or not she told him to have the plug pulled or not, then why is this EVEN an issue. Not to step on toes here but this women should have been dead a long time ago. The courts should have never even heard the case!
So IMHO you all can argue right to life all you want but Michael Shiavo is Terrie's legal guardian and as such he carries out her wishes. Which are to end her life if she is under the current conditions she is now and has been for 15yrs. I dont give two rats asses if you think its murder because in the state of Florida pulling the plug is 100% legal.
Now. I think we should all go out and have a picnic. Wouldnt that be nice?
"One murder makes a villain, millions a hero. "
- Beilby Porteus, Death, A Poem
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im on board with sinner here... id rather be dead then live as a vegetable, unable to do anything.
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It's simply a matter of a bunch of liberals finding a victory against Bush since they couldn't do it on the political stage. Terry Schiavo lasted for 13 years in a hospital bed w/out proper medical treatment. Now you say her husband has the right to carry out her wishes. This guy shouldn't even be considered that anymore. He moved in with another woman years ago and can't marry her until today's horrible tragedy occured.
You say let her "die in peace"....why not just a lethal injection then? Like what Eastwood did in "Million-Dollar Baby"? People sat back and mummified this woman for 2 weeks.
And back to the care she recieved....her husband would do anything for her? Put myself in his shoes? If he knew is wife wasn't going to die immediately, then why didn't he pay any money for her care. Besides one old machine pumping fluid into Schiavo, she was not given any other sort of medical treatment. Modern machinery was turned down by her husband. Her teeth rotted because he didn't give her dental care. This man didn't care for her. He wasn't carrying out her wishes. It is a heresay trial. And I'm sure her wishes were not to be dehydrated for 2 weeks, to have her teeth rot, etc. If anything, it should have been a lethal injection if that is how you were going to kill her.
And Sinner says this is the law? Technically he's right. But this law was heavily enforced by liberal courts that allowed heresay evidence to stand very strong. Most other states need more evidence than this in order to pull out the tube. So I hope you are happy Sinner. At least your party can win by allowing heresay to look like gold and murder a woman to make up for their horrible losses in the elections. You say we should treat Iraqi women and children with some decency? Why not our own Terri Schiavo? k
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TroGdoR Wrote:It's simply a matter of a bunch of liberals finding a victory against Bush since they couldn't do it on the political stage. Terry Schiavo lasted for 13 years in a hospital bed w/out proper medical treatment. Now you say her husband has the right to carry out her wishes. This guy shouldn't even be considered that anymore. He moved in with another woman years ago and can't marry her until today's horrible tragedy occured.
You say let her "die in peace"....why not just a lethal injection then? Like what Eastwood did in "Million-Dollar Baby"? People sat back and mummified this woman for 2 weeks.
And back to the care she recieved....her husband would do anything for her? Put myself in his shoes? If he knew is wife wasn't going to die immediately, then why didn't he pay any money for her care. Besides one old machine pumping fluid into Schiavo, she was not given any other sort of medical treatment. Modern machinery was turned down by her husband. Her teeth rotted because he didn't give her dental care. This man didn't care for her. He wasn't carrying out her wishes. It is a heresay trial. And I'm sure her wishes were not to be dehydrated for 2 weeks, to have her teeth rot, etc. If anything, it should have been a lethal injection if that is how you were going to kill her.
And Sinner says this is the law? Technically he's right. But this law was heavily enforced by liberal courts that allowed heresay evidence to stand very strong. Most other states need more evidence than this in order to pull out the tube. So I hope you are happy Sinner. At least your party can win by allowing heresay to look like gold and murder a woman to make up for their horrible losses in the elections. You say we should treat Iraqi women and children with some decency? Why not our own Terri Schiavo? k
Amen.
I don't care if I'm spamming, it's the truth what he said.
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TroGdoR Wrote:It's simply a matter of a bunch of liberals finding a victory against Bush since they couldn't do it on the political stage.
The first in many untrue or misinformed statements you made. The people who support the right of people to choose to end their life under certain dire circumstances is supported by people of ALL political affiliations. The fact that the Senate rejected a bill aimed to save Terry Schiavo proves this.
TroGdoR Wrote:Terry Schiavo lasted for 13 years in a hospital bed w/out proper medical treatment. Now you say her husband has the right to carry out her wishes. This guy shouldn't even be considered that anymore. He moved in with another woman years ago and can't marry her until today's horrible tragedy occured.
If she was truely receiving improper medical care then DCFS would have her husband in court right now trying him and the doctors, nurses and other medical staff for abuse. But they are not. The court found no reasonable evidence to allow DCFS, Department of Children and Family Services for those who dont know, to intervine. Did you know that in her 15yrs in the hospic she NEVER ONCE had a bed sore? Do you know that is THE most common ailment of people in her condition and she has NEVER had one. That alone speakes volumes for the level of care and attention she received.
TroGdoR Wrote:You say let her "die in peace"....why not just a lethal injection then? Like what Eastwood did in "Million-Dollar Baby"? People sat back and mummified this woman for 2 weeks.
Letting her die in peace and lethal injection are two completely different things. Lethal injection is illegal unless deemed okay by a court of ones peers. Which only happens in criminal cases. Under Florida law the only way you can "kill" someone who has asked to be "killed" is to pull the plug, for lack of better wordage.
TroGdoR Wrote:And back to the care she recieved....her husband would do anything for her? Put myself in his shoes? If he knew is wife wasn't going to die immediately, then why didn't he pay any money for her care. Besides one old machine pumping fluid into Schiavo, she was not given any other sort of medical treatment. Modern machinery was turned down by her husband. Her teeth rotted because he didn't give her dental care.
The women could breath on her own, her heart beat on its own, her liver processed blood in fact all of her other internal organs functioned just fine other than the fact she as clinically a vegetable. So other than that old fluid pump no other machienery was needed.
Okay her teeth rotted. That is rather horrible but logical. She can not chew and swallow her own food so having a dentist come in to clean her teeth on a regular basis is like scrubbing a permanent stain on the floor. It may make you feel like your doing something but in the end you would have been just as well off leaving it alone. Beyond that I am sure her parents could have gotten that taken care of by the courts if they REALLY cared about her too. Interesting they didnt though isnt it?
TroGdoR Wrote:This man didn't care for her. He wasn't carrying out her wishes. It is a heresay trial. And I'm sure her wishes were not to be dehydrated for 2 weeks, to have her teeth rot, etc. If anything, it should have been a lethal injection if that is how you were going to kill her.
Again thats illegal. He was not looking to break the law just simply carry out her wishes. There is a difference.
TroGdoR Wrote:And Sinner says this is the law? Technically he's right. But this law was heavily enforced by liberal courts that allowed heresay evidence to stand very strong. Most other states need more evidence than this in order to pull out the tube. So I hope you are happy Sinner. At least your party can win by allowing heresay to look like gold and murder a woman to make up for their horrible losses in the elections.
My party? Liberals? My "party" so you know is NOT the liberals. I happen to have voted Bush in the last election. Beyond that you can refer to the first statement I made.
TroGdoR Wrote:You say we should treat Iraqi women and children with some decency? Why not our own Terri Schiavo? k
Great way to compare two completly different topics.
"One murder makes a villain, millions a hero. "
- Beilby Porteus, Death, A Poem
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Ok Sinner, where to begin? First you said that her parents could have gotten the medical treatment such as dental work. This statement is uninformed. Her husband was the only one allowed to cover medical expenses, and her parents were trying to take those off of his hands.
Why did you never once speak on the woman this man moved in with? What do you have to say about that. You are supposed to stick with your wife "in SICKNESS and in health" yet he didn't.
Next, I wasn't vouching for lethal injection. I was just saying that it seems a heck of a lot more "humane."
And onwards we roll. You say that dental work and other forms of medical treatment wouldn't have mattered? Vegetables have snapped out of it before. Recovering doesn't mean a "full" recovery as I'm sure you say it should. But I sure as heck wouldn't wanna snap out of that state with so many different medical problems because of a "lack of care" from whoever was treating me.
You honestly use the DCFS as a good reason? Enough said.
And lastly, my final comparison was of the humane treatment we should be giving our OWN citizens, and Not just the Iraqi women and children.
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I didnt speak of the "other woman" he now lives with and what not because quite frankly I can understand why he is living with her. Terries parents obviously are not there supporting him and far as I can tell other than vouching for the fact Terry would not want to be kept alive his side of the family does not seem very active in this whole issue. A human NEEDS someone to support them. A vegetable, the cause of the sorrow, is not a very good companion. So he did the only other logical thing and found someone else who would support him and be there. Yes he could have taken and moved Terrie closer to his family but that would have just been another bucket of mud for people throw at him, much like the money he gets when she dies when in reality he has probably spend 90% of it on court fees already and the rest will go to the executor of the will anyways most likely. In the end he will see very little if any financal windfall from this. Your heartless if you demand that he continue on in relative solitude for 15yrs. You couldnt do it and nor could anyone else on this forum or earth. So maybe you lack that understanding, I dont know, but I can not believe thats even issue to you. Maybe your just to rapped up in your Biblical fiction to see how horrible and heartless it would be to make him live through all this alone. I honestly can not understand it anyways.
So your real qulam with all this is how humane her death was? If thats your issue then blamming Michael Shiavo is blamming the wrong person. Go tell your congress that if they are going to allow people to end their lives in situations much like Terries that lethal injection or some other form of painless be institued. Michael Shiavo was simply following the law according to his wifes wishes.
People in persistent vegitative states brought on by brain damage much like Terries rarely if ever regain any form of cognitive awareness. Those who do are usually the ones who have been misdiagnosed and were really in a deep comatose state, which is entirely different from a vegetative state. Everything else is just hypothetical and nearly impossible to argue figureing we can "assume" or "hypothesise"(SP?) just about any scenario. So you can run off any little old jolly trail you want...I dont much care.
In reality I never said anything about the humane treatment of Iraqi women anywhere on this board. I did however mention my extreme distate for men who are womanizers or just generally mistreat women. Maybe thats the opinion of the liberal party, which I have NO affiliation with, but it is not necessarily mine.
Whats sad is I think your 1000% convinced that I'm some flamming radical liberal when in reality I'm not conservative 100% nor am I liberal 100%. My stance differs depending on the topic. In this case I just happen to side more with the liberals than I do with Bible Bush Conservatives. Just thought I should clear up polictical views for you. I can send you a list of my views on hot button issues so you can guage what polictical party to associate me with based on the topic if you want. Just ask.
"One murder makes a villain, millions a hero. "
- Beilby Porteus, Death, A Poem
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i personally would rather die immediately rather than be kept alive for 15 years on a slim chance that i may "snap out of it" and find the world completely different and strange. i would not put my family through the torment that they would suffer from having to support my medical fees for 15 years and from having to see me in my condition for 15 years, losing a little more hope every year that passes. i would end my life gracefully and give them the ability to move on with their own life
*sigh*
i will not disagree with those that choose to live on in a vegetative state. your choice is yours to make but keep in mind the costs on other people's lives to sustain yours
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**NOTE** this is the brother of spread (my nick is "yourhcfriend" or something i dont remember...**
I didn't take the time to read most of these posts, but I can tell you dl. Priest that she did not tell her husband that she would want to get unplugged if she ever became a vegetable. No one thinks it will happen to themselves.... He should of had the least say in what happens to her because he obviously didn't care too much for her as much as her parents and siblings. I'm sure she wouldn't want him to fight with her family either. The man is a ***** too, from what I have heard about him.
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dacougarmech Wrote:i personally would rather die immediately rather than be kept alive for 15 years on a slim chance that i may "snap out of it" and find the world completely different and strange. i would not put my family through the torment that they would suffer from having to support my medical fees for 15 years and from having to see me in my condition for 15 years, losing a little more hope every year that passes. i would end my life gracefully and give them the ability to move on with their own life
*sigh*
i will not disagree with those that choose to live on in a vegetative state. your choice is yours to make but keep in mind the costs on other people's lives to sustain yours
***BROTHER AGAIN***
FINANCE WAS NEVER AN ISSUE. WELL MAYBE FOR MICHEAL.... HE GETS MONEY OUT OF THIS SOMEHOW( SOMETHING ABOUT A MALPRACTICE SUIT AND IM SURE HE IS GOING TO WRITE A BOOK ETC.) SO JUST TO LET YOU KNOW, IT WAS NOT THAT GREAT A COST ON OTHER PPL'S LIVES... DO YOUR HW 
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Sinner Wrote: Michael Shiavo was simply following the law according to his wifes wishes.
THE FLAW IN YOUR STATEMENT. NO ONE THAT YOUNG (KEEP IN MIND THE 15 YRS) WISHES TO BE UNPLUGGED FROM A SIMPLE FEEDING TUBE OR EVEN THINKS ABOUT BEING A VEGETABLE.
**BRO AGAIN
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How can you say such a thing? I have told my woman countless times that I would rather be shot then end up in a vegetive state, alot of couples go over the same thing.
Only two people know for certain what was said, the husband and Terri Schiavo,
Not you, not the media, not any "right to lifers", just those two.
If the husband says that was what her wishes were, I am inclined to believe him.
Do not pass judgement on him until you have walked in his shoes.
Good day.
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she needed to die.for 15 years she suck 10,000 a year from tax payers thats a bad thing she was a damn carrot for 15 years damn u chirstans
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dL.Priest Wrote: But if you look at what I had posted earlier, it was not just the husband who she had expressed these wishes to.
dL.Priest Wrote:Only two people know for certain what was said, the husband and Terri Schiavo, Not you, not the media, not any "right to lifers", just those two.
????????, just making a point.
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