McCain or Obama?

[Obfuscate]

It will mean cutting expenditures by more than 200 billion dollar, not taking into account the tax cuts even. I'm sure we'll hear more about this in 2009.

Don't you think it would be great if you would be more supported, so you have an easier time becoming rich, and once you are rich, paying more taxes. It's an income tax though, so you never loose what you've earned, you simply pay more to society if your income is really high.

If you cut taxes on low incomes and increase them on high income, you support lower income to become rich and keep rich people from becoming too rich. There is something as too rich, just look at Bill Gates. You can't say he really deserves to earn every minute what a farmer in Zimbabwe can't earn in a week.

Thats called communism. I think you remember what happened to the last big communistic country right?

[Determinado]

Thats called communism. I think you remember what happened to the last big communistic country right?

That's not communism, that's fair play. People with a higher income can miss more money than people with a low income, that's just plain simple.
In a communist system there simply are no high incomes.
Communism means that the gap between rich and poor is REALLY tight, almost everyone earns the same amount of money and going to the hospital is free, public transport is free, etc etc
In other words: The state gets your profit and spends it to the community.

Problem? Motivation. Why work hard if you can earn the same amount of money working like a lazy guy? Why get a high degree if you can earn the same amount of money not getting a degree at all?
Black markets are also booming in communist systems, because using other ways of gaining goods is almost a neccesity.

The problem I have with the Bush tax cuts is that people who can miss the money are given the tax cut, people that won't feel the tax cut when they go shopping for food and goods for their children, or choosing education for their children. People who actually have to buy the cheapest goods and perhaps not get any education beyond high school aren't receiving a tax cut. Or at least peanuts compared to the highest income class.
Btw: don't forget if you cut the taxes on the lowest income class, this also means a tax cut for the richest people!

[SpoonMan999]

Again, the tax cuts encourage companies to stay in this country. We're losing more and more work to countries that allow for cheaper wages and it hurts the people while helping the economy.

[Mathalamus]

screw the USA, they really need to downsize everything. for a 230 year old former british colony, they are much MUCH too powerful.

[SpoonMan999]

screw the USA, they really need to downsize everything. for a 230 year old former british colony, they are much MUCH too powerful.

You the US because we're powerful?

First, this is off-topic and random.

Second, that's a really shitty reason to hate something.

Third...well it's you making this statement so I think most of us realize it's rather insignificant.

[Mathalamus]

well USA isnt a top country with perfect records

[Determinado]

Those are just income taxes, not company taxes, unless that's the same in the US? I don't think so.
Anyways for a company with an international market the production price is one of the most important factors, if low incomes have to pay more taxes that means they'll want a higher income (so they have more left to spend), meaning production price rises.

Although delocalization is a problem every advanced nation has to cope with, there's no healthy way to stop it. The only answer to this delocalization is advancing to higher quality or more advanced products which can't be made in those cheaper countries, or can't be made cheaper in those countries. After all most of those countries aren't very close to their offset markets so with rising prices of fuel their products also become more expensive.

[SpoonMan999]

That wouldn't work, it's only cheaper because of the labor. These companies could easily build advanced factories and facilities and though the materials cost the same the workers come much cheaper.

[Determinado]

It does work, it just won't work for your average pillow or something. Here in Belgium the textile sector was devastated by Chinese textile, but advanced textile like fireproof clothing is still a booming market and they won't bother to manufacture them in China, because it needs expertise.

[[/sarcasm]]

I already voted Obama. I think that Obama has a better outlook on how to run things. McCain has been following an economic model that even Alan Greenspan said was fundamentally flawed.

Obama also supports investing more in education, and that was one of the most prominent selling points for me. Our top students in America pale in comparison to the top students in other countries. I wasn't challenged very much in public High School, and I am probably going to put my children in private schools years down the road when I actually have children because your education determines your success, and I don't think the current public school system is sufficient enough to produce students working at the top of their potential.

Also, for 95% of the American people, Obama will not be raising taxes, but rather lowering them below the taxes they were paying in the Reagan Administration. The tax raises are going to be to those households that make more than a quarter million dollars per year. That's almost a hundred thousand more than my parents make per year, and I consider my parents fiscally well off. Not rich, but upper middle class.

I think, even if I were Republicans, I wouldn't vote for McCain. He's running an incredibly unprofessional and disrespectful campaign at this point. He's evading the issues and putting politics first, not country. Like choosing Sarah Palin for VP. I think that was a wholly political move, and I think she is the last person I want to be VP.

[SpoonMan999]

Money in schools isn't the problem. Why oh why is the solution from the left always "Let's throw money at it." The public schools have plenty of money to educate kids the problem is there's no competition. Which is why McCain supports a voucher program...basically if you aren't satisfied with public schools then they'll give you a voucher that basically takes the money they would have spent to put you in public school and let's you use it to put your kids in private schools. That's taking money away from the school you say? If that kid goes to a private school then the public school doesn't get the money either way considering they are paid based on how many kids are attending.

Why is this a good idea? If more kids leave public schools for private institutes then it forces the public schools to step up and start offering a a decent education and get rid of those teachers who just don't care.

PS: Obama's definition of rich was $250,000 a year...that is in no way shape or form rich. Well off? Yeah, but most of those people are business owners and taxing them more = fewer jobs. Also, apparantly there's an ad where the number has changed to $200,000 a year and according to Joe Biden a few days ago it's now $150,000 a year. Probably because they realised if they cut all those taxes they're not going to have any money to spend on the crazy amount of programs they want. "Let's lower the debt by spending more and decreasing our revenue..." "That's brilliant Barack! And it makes absolute sense!"

[[/sarcasm]]

The point is that I'm not only suggesting that all Obama wants to do is throw more money at it. Overall he just has a tighter focus on education. He understands that No Child Left Behind was bad logic. Students should be taught to understand and learn, not memorize.

I was a Junior in High School when NCLB started affecting me. The school was forced to funnel away teachers of Pre-AP and AP classes to teach kids how to bubble the right answer, without really understanding why it was right. Standardized testing needs to be taken a serious look at, because doing well on tests does not equate to really understanding the material. I was somewhat unprepared for college the first couple of weeks because I was so used to being able to bullshit my way through things with only a superficial understanding, Calculus in particular.

And I think Biden meant that people below 150,000 would see no tax CUTS or tax increases, but rather pay the same taxes as they are now. Not sure about the 200,000 thing, but everything I'm seeing on his website is tax incresases for 250k or more. What leads me to think that about the no tax cuts for 150,000 or more is because at 90,000 a year, you're getting 1,000 back but below that you're getting more. I'm only assuming that the higher the income, the closer the tax cut gets to 0, until 250k when it goes up.

And btw, the 250k figure is net income, not gross income, as I just read (not on the Obama website) so if you reinvest the gains as expenses, such as upkeep, that isn't included. Most small businesses do not make more than a quarter million net income.

Most meaning like 90+%

[SpoonMan999]

I know plenty of small business owners pulling in 250k a year and most of them already pay more in taxes than they take home at the end of the day.

Did you know that the oil companies, despite the killing they're makingin profits, paid $2 in taxes for $1 of profit they made last year?

Obama keeps saying he's going to start doing this and that and yet he never explains HOW. Just that it's gonna happen. He says he'll improve education...ok other than throwing money at it what has Obama said he'll do?

[[/sarcasm]]

According to http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Fac..._FINAL.pdf, which is Obama's official Tax plan, taxes will not be raised on the wealthy to any more than they were raised in the 90's, which seemed to work pretty well as a tax plan, seeing as we actually turned a surplus and the economy was in an up-swing. (Which may or may not have been related to Clinton at all, I concede, due to the nature of growth in the 90's)

Fact is, I think we'll be astonished by how much extra money we'll have and can afford to give back to the country when we aren't fighting in Iraq. We've spent 3 trillion dollars over there already, more than four times this giant bail-out that's supposed to fix our economic recession/depression (depending on who you ask). I don't really think finding the money to fund education, which would essentially pay for itself down the line, is going to be a problem once we stop throwing our money into a fire.

And Obama has said that he and Biden will reform the No Child Left Behind act, which I have already talked about. He has also talked about new programs within the group of teachers to help them stay at their job (one of the biggest problems with teachers right now) and train them to not suck at it. I'm pretty sure, what with Biden's wife being a teacher and Obama's sister as well, they'll have a little bit of knowledge about what a teacher needs to do well.

Still on education, Obama's said that he will put more emphasis on AP/college-credit courses. By the way, college enrollment is something that can be fixed by throwing money at it. More funding to the universities means less money that has to come out of the student's pockets. I know a few people that are more than willing and more than ready to go to college, but can't afford it.

Obama is also more pro-active about energy independence than McCain seems to be. He just wants to band-aid the situation whereas Obama is really striving to get us off of not only foreign oil, but oil period. It's bad technology.

But it seems like I've been the one on the defensive the whole time.

What is it that McCain plans on doing about these things? The economy? The fact that America is falling behind/has fallen behind in the modern world? The stupid war?

I've heard little substance about McCain, really. All I hear is that Obama has these radical *associations* that are just ridiculous evasions of the real issues.

EDIT: BTW, Obama wants to reward corporations that keep their companies in the U.S. by cutting taxes. He's also trying to tighten up loopholes that actually cut taxes for people that DON'T keep jobs in the U.S..

[SpoonMan999]

According to http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Fac..._FINAL.pdf, which is Obama's official Tax plan, taxes will not be raised on the wealthy to any more than they were raised in the 90's, which seemed to work pretty well as a tax plan, seeing as we actually turned a surplus and the economy was in an up-swing. (Which may or may not have been related to Clinton at all, I concede, due to the nature of growth in the 90's)

Fact is, I think we'll be astonished by how much extra money we'll have and can afford to give back to the country when we aren't fighting in Iraq. We've spent 3 trillion dollars over there already, more than four times this giant bail-out that's supposed to fix our economic recession/depression (depending on who you ask). I don't really think finding the money to fund education, which would essentially pay for itself down the line, is going to be a problem once we stop throwing our money into a fire.

And Obama has said that he and Biden will reform the No Child Left Behind act, which I have already talked about. He has also talked about new programs within the group of teachers to help them stay at their job (one of the biggest problems with teachers right now) and train them to not suck at it. I'm pretty sure, what with Biden's wife being a teacher and Obama's sister as well, they'll have a little bit of knowledge about what a teacher needs to do well.

Still on education, Obama's said that he will put more emphasis on AP/college-credit courses. By the way, college enrollment is something that can be fixed by throwing money at it. More funding to the universities means less money that has to come out of the student's pockets. I know a few people that are more than willing and more than ready to go to college, but can't afford it.

Obama is also more pro-active about energy independence than McCain seems to be. He just wants to band-aid the situation whereas Obama is really striving to get us off of not only foreign oil, but oil period. It's bad technology.

But it seems like I've been the one on the defensive the whole time.

What is it that McCain plans on doing about these things? The economy? The fact that America is falling behind/has fallen behind in the modern world? The stupid war?

I've heard little substance about McCain, really. All I hear is that Obama has these radical *associations* that are just ridiculous evasions of the real issues.

EDIT: BTW, Obama wants to reward corporations that keep their companies in the U.S. by cutting taxes. He's also trying to tighten up loopholes that actually cut taxes for people that DON'T keep jobs in the U.S..

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

You clearly have no idea what's going on in this election, other than what you read right off of his site. So again I ask HOW WILL HE DO THESE THINGS...NOT WHAT HE HOPES TO DO BUT HOW.

Also, McCain's energy plan is to build new refineries and drill domestically to sustain us while we research new energy sources. He promotes the use of nuclear energy, currently France is using mostly nuclear energy and doing great because of it.

McCain's economic plan? Is to keep the tax rate as it is and instead cut how much money the government is spending. His first act in office will be freezing ALL spending and evaluation which programs we can get rid of and which programs we need to keep.

Also, the stupid war? Did you know that people in the military are voting McCain at a 3:1 ratio against those for Obama? I think the troops would like to make sure their friend's didn't die in vain.

Inform yourself before entering a debate.

PS: Iraq is costing us less than Obama plans to spend in addition to what we're already spending.

[[/sarcasm]]

I've heard a lot about this spending freeze. It seems a little ridiculous to me. He goes up there and acts like he's just going to wave his magic wand and demand that everything stop and then hand-pick everything that looks like it's good for the country from his perspective. I'm sure our country will be a hell of a place after that.

And yeah, we could all live in a perfect world where winning a war is going to make everyone feel better about those who died, but they're still dead. And the longer a war goes on, the more people will die. And those people will all have died in vain, because they weren't fighting for our freedom. I have the utmost respect for the military and our soldiers out there, but the war was a political move. We were terrorized and we lashed back blindly in order to retain our pride. We had no beef with Iraq and we even fabricated evidence in order to link them to 9/11 and WMD's.

You honestly think that we can win this war? I don't. We can certainly make advances, but extremism will always be there.

Drilling for oil now is a joke. We don't drill and fill our buckets with the shit instantly. By the time we can actually use the oil, I would hope we would have moved to more efficient batteries or more widespread use of hydrogen or other energy.

By the way, I'm done here. This is a circus.

[Stalker7d7]

I think McCain has better policies, better experience and a clear head.

laugh:
Funny. Old bastards probably developing alzheimer's as we speak. Secondly, look at the VP he chose. How could anybody want somebody stupid enough to pick a vp like that to be president?

[SpoonMan999]

I've heard a lot about this spending freeze. It seems a little ridiculous to me. He goes up there and acts like he's just going to wave his magic wand and demand that everything stop and then hand-pick everything that looks like it's good for the country from his perspective. I'm sure our country will be a hell of a place after that.

And yeah, we could all live in a perfect world where winning a war is going to make everyone feel better about those who died, but they're still dead. And the longer a war goes on, the more people will die. And those people will all have died in vain, because they weren't fighting for our freedom. I have the utmost respect for the military and our soldiers out there, but the war was a political move. We were terrorized and we lashed back blindly in order to retain our pride. We had no beef with Iraq and we even fabricated evidence in order to link them to 9/11 and WMD's.

You honestly think that we can win this war? I don't. We can certainly make advances, but extremism will always be there.

Drilling for oil now is a joke. We don't drill and fill our buckets with the shit instantly. By the time we can actually use the oil, I would hope we would have moved to more efficient batteries or more widespread use of hydrogen or other energy.

By the way, I'm done here. This is a circus.

This is a circus? What you don't like you opinions being challenged with facts? I'm sorry that you get all your information from CNN...really I am.

Drilling now is a temporary solution as researching and then implementing new energy sources will take a very long time. This whole "drilling will do nothing for us" is just ignorance.

Back to the war again? Ok hotshot, we fabricated evidence? Saddam was spreading rumors in order to keep people afraid of him, even his generals sincerely though he had WMD's, because he feared an attack from Israel and other nations. Read Scott McClelan's book about the Bush administration it has a lot of behind the scenes information that could enlighten the illinformed. Also, the 9/11 ties were speculation that rose AFTER the war started.

Seriously, come back with some FACTS after you've done a little research instead of browsing CNN.

[Bartender]

Thats called communism. I think you remember what happened to the last big communistic country right?

No, that's not communism.

Try reading the Communist Manifesto before spouting such asinine statements.

If you knew anything about political stand points you'd know that both the Democrats and Republicans are both right wing parties in the global scheme of things. It just so happens that the republicans are that much further to the right.

[Skye]

laugh:
Funny. Old bastards probably developing alzheimer's as we speak. Secondly, look at the VP he chose. How could anybody want somebody stupid enough to pick a vp like that to be president?

Now now, no need to be an asshole.

I'm entitled to my opinions